INTERVIEW WITH MATTHIAS SAUER

Art journalists Nicole Büsing & Heiko Klaas in an interview with Matthias Sauer, Head of Infrastructure, on all matters relating to the organisational background of dOCUMENTA (13).

Mr Sauer, please briefly introduce yourself and state your role at Documenta.

My name is Matthias Sauer, and officially I'm called "Head of Infrastructure." I always say it's everything but art.

What does "everything but art" mean? What exactly do you do?

The Documenta is an art exhibition like any other. But just like the comparison between a single-family house and a skyscraper, the bigger the operation gets, the more complex it becomes. Each time, Documenta has to find new spaces that are then reserved for art. I deal more with the surroundings: ticket booths, restrooms, cloakrooms, and everything concerning vehicles. We always have a lot of sponsored vehicles. And this time there's also a Documenta bus line. But we've also had tram lines and even our own ship line once. And then we also take care of supplying the exhibition with printed materials, tickets, and catalogues. An enormous amount is distributed because we have so many locations. That was already quite a lot last time. This time it will be even more.

So, you are practically responsible for organizing that everything possible gets to the right place at the right time?

Exactly. There's also a small intervention team that is always driving around, making the main distribution in the morning, and on Saturdays, it can even be twice a day.

So everyone always gets supplies...

Yes. It's all improvised. We don't have much storage space on site. For example, we have a container in the middle of the train station concourse. And you just have to organize a bit and also obtain permits.

Is it easy to get permits? How does the city of Kassel present itself in this regard?

They are cooperative, but they don't make exceptions for us. The Duisburg effect is also present here. Everyone is afraid of ending up on the podium like the mayor of Duisburg and saying: We messed up. Nobody wants to risk that anymore. Therefore, controls are much stricter than before, for example, concerning escape routes. But that's perfectly fine and not a problem for us. The Documenta has always been heavily controlled by the fire department because we simply have to expect high visitor numbers. We had peak times at Documenta 12, where we sold 14,000 tickets per day. And these weren't some hand-counted figures but actually sold tickets.

Then long queues probably form at the ticket offices...

It gets really intense then. There were two or three weekends when the queue in front of the Documenta-Halle merged with the one at the Fridericianum. However, through infrastructure measures, we can avoid queues at the ticket office. We can ensure that people don't have to queue anywhere. Only at the exhibition buildings is one limited by the capacity of the space. If you let too many people in, the insurance company will eventually get on your back and say, "This far and no further." They simply have certain guidelines, and then you have to close the building for a while.

This isn't your first time doing this at dOCUMENTA (13). How long have you been involved?

If you've been part of two or more exhibitions like me, you're considered a veteran at Documenta. I already worked as an intern at Documenta 10. But in between, I was always away. That's typical for Documenta. Nobody has a permanent contract like at the Biennale, for example. They work through because it takes place every two years. But with us, you take a four-year break and look for something else in the meantime.

What do you do in the meantime?

Between Documenta 10 and Documenta 11, I was in Stockholm for four years. That was the European Capital of Culture at the time. I worked at the Kulturhuset there. Between Documenta 11 and 12, I was employed by the City of Kassel. Here too, there was a bid for Capital of Culture. I organized events for the Capital of Culture office.

Can you tell us something about your background? Your education?

I studied political science and administration in Konstanz and originally wanted to go into development aid. My path into this field was a coincidence: Between my basic and main studies, we had to do a long internship, about three-quarters of a year. It had to be abroad, and I already had a spot in Southern Africa. When I wanted to go there, a civil war broke out a few months before, and I had to quickly find something else. I then ended up at the Centre Pompidou in Paris. That was so much fun that I stuck with it.

So, in the cultural sector...

Exactly. During my studies, I also did internships in cultural centers and museums.

Did that spark your interest in art, or was it already there?

Art, only conditionally. I actually always did internships in the design and architecture fields. That's where my interest lay. But in principle, it's like this: whether you're exhibiting expensive design or expensive art, what you need in the background is actually very similar.

But still, you always came into contact with art...

Yes, of course. You do develop an interest. You then also know the people, go to other exhibitions, and find out what the competition is up to. That's clear.

So, are there also contacts, for example, to the Venice Biennale or other major exhibitions?

Yes, especially through the "Grand Tour," which was five years ago, a lot has developed with the Biennale. But people from Art Basel and so on also come to us.

So there's a lively exchange?

Yes. We also always go to the opening of the Berlin Biennale and vice versa. That's clear.

Back to your daily work. Now that we still have some time until the opening of Documenta, what are you currently working on?

Currently, we are in the final phase of planning the Documenta bus line. There will be a D13, a bus line 13, which will connect the Documenta exhibition venues as a circular route. And now it's about which stops will be set up, where we need a wheelchair ramp, those kinds of things.

It seems like very practical questions...

Another example: A long time ago, we spoke with the Hessian Ministry of Transport about signs on the highway. On the one hand, for wayfinding. On the other hand, it's also good advertising for us if there are signs three by four meters or so on the A7 and A44.

That's always been the case, hasn't it?

Yes. We've always had that. And each time it's a game between the authorities and us. The design we want, of course, does not comply with German standards for highway signage.

You probably need a special permit for that again, right?

There is no special permit. We are trying to approach it slowly...

Is a solution in sight?

Yes. In principle, it will be white-based signage. Because it's not tourist signage and the driver should be distracted as little as possible when speeding through Germany, we weren't allowed to put it up last year. But now it will be coming soon.

You work in a team. How big is your team?

The Documenta as an organization expands and then contracts again like an accordion every time. It's similar in my case. I've now gained an employee who exclusively handles print production, takes care of all the tenders with the printing companies, and so on, and also ensures that the design is implemented as determined by our graphic designers and the communications department. Then I have employees who only deal with fleet and logistics issues. And currently, also a whole team of people who are just driving around furnishing apartments. Because this Documenta will feature a lot of freshly produced art, we expect many artists to be in Kassel for a very long time.

And they all need to be accommodated...

Yes, we have currently rented around 40 apartments, which are gradually being occupied by artists. In Germany, there are hardly any furnished apartments. A lot still needs to be furnished. We buy at Ikea, we borrow beds and so on. That's more than we thought. The whole thing has turned into quite a stressful job. That's why five people are now busy furnishing apartments: from bed linen to the last spoon.

But you also have to mediate between the artists and the city from time to time, right?

It always depends. There have always been projects where there was a lot of contact with the city and sometimes even trouble. I often had to deal with that. Thomas Hirschhorn, for example, had a project in the Nordstadt ten years ago. There was constant trouble with the authorities. They sold döner without a permit. And they offered a shuttle service with ancient Mercedes vehicles. So I helped them to get the guys who drove them a passenger transport license. Things like that. As soon as you enter urban space, there are an incredible number of regulations in Germany.

But in your calm way, you always found a solution with the authorities in the end, didn't you?

Somewhat. If it's somehow feasible, then it works. There are always projects where it's simply not feasible, because official requirements make it very expensive. Or because it's really too dangerous. Then you have to find a solution.

You've been involved several times. Did you have the opportunity during the 100 days to quietly view the exhibitions, or did you not get around to it at all?

Relatively late usually. For the first three or four weeks, you're still working through a lot, noticing that something isn't optimally resolved yet. After that, sometime in July, you can finally walk through it peacefully yourself. But not all at once, rather you take three hours for one building, three hours for another, in that way.

Do you have a favorite spot in Kassel where you can relax, reflect, and switch off from Documenta?

I don't have a garden or anything like that myself. But I have a small woods behind my house called Tannenwäldchen. I can sit on a park bench there with my coffee cup, and it's great. In the background, you can hear the trains from the main station to Wilhelmshöhe station. But you can't see them. I think that's somehow quite funny. For me, it's a really beautiful place.

08.05.2012